You may have read (or heard of) the explosive report by The New York Times that reveals an ongoing culture of sexual abuse and harassment in one of the upper levels of the gourmet food world, the master sommeliers.
Certified master sommeliers are an elite circle, considering that only 155 people have earned the title since the Americas chapter of the Court of Master Sommeliers was founded in 1997.
Of that 155, only 24 are women. That’s only 15.48% over the last 23 years.
On today’s episode, Emma and Mike talk to two master sommeliers that fall into that elite 15.48% category, Katie Ellsweig and Karen Anne Selby. They talk about some of the experiences they endured in their careers, and the need for change. This is definitely an episode you don’t want to miss.
Transcript on Web Savvy in the Wine Biz
Emma Criswell:
Welcome to Hit the Bottle, I am Emma Criswell, VP of client relations with Balzac Communications, and today we are going to have a discussion about some very pertinent happenings in the wine industry, namely sexual harassment and lack of diversity, you name it, it’s really blown up recently.
So, I have brought in two female colleagues to talk to me about this. First, we’ve got Katie Ellsweig, who’s a native New Yorker and a longtime employee of Kobrand Wine and Spirits and a self-proclaimed champion of women in the wine business. Katie began her career in wine by accident after quitting her job in the music business. And she became a sommelier in a New York City restaurant.
Soon after she was discovered by Kobrand, and her career has taken her to almost every state in the U.S. She is currently in Portland, Oregon. Hi, Katie. Thanks for being here.
Katie Ellsweig:
All right. Hi, guys. Thanks for having me. My first podcast, obviously.
Emma Criswell:
And we’ve also got Miss Karen Anne Selby, she is a hospitality professional and certified sommelier through the Court of Master Sommeliers, an aspiring chef, and a proud graduate of the International Culinary Center Sommelier Intensive. She’s worked at more than 10 restaurants and is a hospitality consultant and has traveled extensively as an independent Sommelier, volunteering for events, conferences, and seminars. She’s currently continuing her wine education and recently completed her first harvest. Hi, Karen.
Karen Anne Selby:
Hi. Hi, everyone. So nice to see all of you here on your podcast. Thanks for having me.
Emma Criswell:
Absolutely. And last but not least, I’ve got my host with the most my handy dandy sidekick and my favorite male feminist president of Balzac Communications, Mr. Mike Wangbickler.
Michael Wangbickler:
I think that’s the best introduction I’ve ever had. Thanks, Emma. Good to be here.
Emma Criswell:
We try to top each other every one of these.
So, there is a lot going on, to say it mildly, in the wine industry right now as it comes to sexual harassment and lack of diversity and inclusiveness and equity and equality and all of it.
And just, you know, what’s going on in your world? What are you seeing? What are you hearing? What’s happening?
Karen Anne Selby:
Well, in my world, a lot is changing. I find myself as one of the only… either one of the only females or one of the only African Americans in a room, especially with, you know, dealing with fine wine and traveling amongst the industry.
But a lot is changing, and people are definitely calling on the industry to be more diverse. And I think it needs to happen in a way that’s genuine, not in a way that’s forced or in a way that makes people of color that have been working very hard on their careers this entire time, you don’t really want to make them feel like you’re putting them on a forced platform, so to speak.
So, a lot is changing. And, you know, some of that I agree with, and some of it I think is a little stretched. And I think that people could definitely do more research before just calling on black people, black wine professionals, to be that voice to fix the problem.
Emma Criswell:
I’m feeling that way, too. Just it’s very similar to what was going on, I feel like with the George Floyd earlier in the year, and that women are kind of being asked to take this on, and people of color are being asked to take this on.
And I mean, specifically, what is bringing us here today and what the impetus was, is the New York Times article on harassment within the Court of Master Sommeliers, and I can’t tell you how many people within that certification community reached out to me are like, “oh, God, oh, God, have I done anything… Like, what do I need to do? Who do I need to reach out to?” Like, you know… “who do I talk to?”
Katie Ellsweig:
Really just think that if you have to ask, you’ve already done something wrong. You know, I knew that article was coming out probably I want to say six weeks before it came out, and I sat down to lunch with a group of women in the wine business in different facets of the industry and different levels of involvement with the Court of Master Sommeliers.
I myself am not involved with the Court, I chose to do my education through WSET, and joining the Court was something that never seemed attractive to me for a million reasons.
But probably the top two was that there – I mean, even today the Court is 15 percent comprised of women compared with the Master of Wine Community, which is forty one percent women. I got that data from wine economics.
And I think that, you know, when I sat down with these women and were eating lunch and they kind of went into this conversation about all of these articles coming out, the first thing out of my mouth was, oh hey, is it about Geoff Kruth?
Emma Criswell:
Yeah.
Katie Ellsweig:
And it should comment in the fact that I knew before I even asked, the fact that I think a lot of people knew before it even came out is, you know, everyone knew about this. Everyone knew this was happening, and why did no one say anything until now? Because that’s my… And I’m guilty of it.
I mean, I had my own experience with Geoff Kruth, and I certainly… This experience has been more of an experience of reflection for me and what I did wrong and how I failed women for a very long time and why I did that. And that’s a problem, too, that I think needs to be addressed from the very beginning.
Emma Criswell:
Yeah, and I think the other thing that we need to be cognizant of is that it doesn’t only happen within the Court.
Katie Ellsweig:
Oh, for sure.
Emma Criswell:
I’m sure all three of us have had experiences throughout our careers. And I mean, mine – I was having things happen when I was twenty two that people have outlined in this article that, you know, at the time when someone stuck their hand up my dress, I was the one who got kicked out of the bar, you know, because of that.
Katie Ellsweig:
Right?
Emma Criswell:
Yeah.
Karen Anne Selby:
Right.
Emma Criswell:
And that person had nothing to do with the Court. It’s rampant.
And I have had things happen in the past where I’ve gone to superiors about it and said, hey, this happened and have been met with well, we have really good lawyers on retainer, so…”
Michael Wangbickler:
I was not one of those superiors, just want to clarify.
Karen Anne Selby:
Wow.
Emma Criswell:
OK, OK, to be frank, Mike is the reason I’m still in the wine industry right now. Honestly, if I didn’t have him as an ally with me at these events and at the places we go, I would have gotten out because it was just so compounded over the years and I felt like there was nothing I could do that I’m just like, “I’m going… I’m going to a different industry, I’m done. There’s nothing to make me feel safe here.”
Michael Wangbickler:
That’s a really sad statement. That I have to protect you.
Katie Ellsweig:
You know, but you’re right, it’s every facet. I mean, you know, it’s in restaurants, it’s on the distributor level, it is on the consumer level. I have worked consumer events where people feel entitled to come up to me, to touch my tattoos, to touch my hair.
[crosstalk]
Emma Criswell:
And I had some really good hair going on right now.
Karen Anne Selby:
I do know what that’s like for people to want to touch your tattoos or touch your hair or even smell you. Let’s be real.
[crosstalk]
Katie Ellsweig:
Karen, can you tell us about the time that someone tried to smell you?
Karen Anne Selby:
I actually can. It was it was at the Bordeaux event that I worked for you, for you guys, for Balzac, and a gentleman, not someone that worked for Balzac, but someone who was attending the event, who I also see other wine events, because as we know in New York City wine scene is small. So, you see the same people at the same, you know, different wine events.
But the gentleman was… And I’m being so respectful about calling him a gentleman. Right? The gentleman was following me… and following me around to tasting tables. I knew – because I pay attention – so I knew that he was like, you know, kind of just being like a little bit of a creep. And we finally made it… we finally meet at the same table and he’s smelling the wine and he just comes – he comes like kind of close to my neck, and he was and he just like leaned in to smell me. He was like, oh, he’s like, “you smell like… You smell better than this wine.”
Emma Criswell:
Oh, that makes me nauseous.
Katie Ellsweig:
It’s this entitlement that people feel to… Like we’re there for their entertainment, we’re there as wine professionals and women are somehow there, and, you know, the Court Jester like where they’re for…
Emma Criswell:
We’re not on their same level.
Katie Ellsweig:
That is not the case. You can’t just go around smelling people.
Karen Anne Selby:
You can’t just go around smelling people.
Emma Criswell:
That’ll be the title of our white paper…
Karen Anne Selby:
…on Instagram.
Emma Criswell:
Absolutely.
Michael Wangbickler:
That would be a great blog post Emma.
Emma Criswell:
Wouldn’t it? Absolutely. So, we very clearly established this is rampant. What’s next? What do I do? What do we think?
Katie Ellsweig:
You know, I think it’s… I think… There is some very challenging conversations that people have to have with each other and with, you know, their companies and with other… You know, it’s very difficult, I work for Kobrand and I love working for Kobrand, and I have to say that Kobrand is owned by women and a lot of our executive board is made up of women.
My mentor at Kobrand from the very beginning was a woman. She made me half the person I am today.
So, I’ve been very fortunate to work for this company that is so – not only supportive of women, but so protective. I’ve never… I’m so fortunate for that, and I’ve never been in a situation with Kobrand where I felt undervalued or I felt that I wasn’t able to achieve what anybody else around me was achieving, I’ve been promoted twice in the last five years, I’ve moved from New York to Chicago to Portland with Kobrand, so I’m really fortunate for that.
But we deal with so many other people on the distributor level, on the consumer level, with buyers, with other suppliers, and so that’s kind of where it all happens. In the beginning, my career was definitely on the distributor level, there’s some real special people floating around out there.
And I had added a situation in Wisconsin where somebody who is… He’s no longer employed by the distributor, had said something wildly inappropriate to me, and I kind of chose to move on from that. And I think the question was, why did I feel like I wasn’t empowered to say something, when everything around me tells me that I am empowered to say something?
But still, I chose to be silent. I later found out a few weeks ago that that same person was accused of actually physically assaulting a woman.
So now sitting here with that knowledge, Is it… Did I fail? Did I fail to say something and then caused someone else to get hurt? And I don’t know what the answer to that is.
Emma Criswell:
Yeah, I feel like that’s kind of where all of our minds go to is what could we have done better? We are, by default, kind of go to the nurturer side. How can we – how could we have fixed this when why is it not on them?
Katie Ellsweig:
Right. And that’s the same thing that we’re all saying of like, why are we putting this on women? And, you know, why are we putting this on black people? Why are we making us fix the problems that somebody else caused?
Emma Criswell:
Yeah.
Emma Criswell:
Mike, you’re a guy.
Michael Wangbickler:
Yes, I’m told.
Emma Criswell:
So, tell us what’s going to… What will resonate with the male population in the wine industry? And…
Michael Wangbickler:
You know…
Emma Criswell:
Just let me say that, Mike, when we were ordering T-shirts after RBG passed, he’s the one who ordered the T-shirt that said, “women deserve to be in every room where decisions are made”. So, he’s a little skewed… but…
Michael Wangbickler:
Well, you know, Katie, to your point, you know, having women executives and a woman run business in the wine business is very unusual. You know, it is still a male dominated industry, especially at that executive level. And really, until we start to see more women in executive positions, you know, these kinds of problems are going to continue to be nurtured by the establishment.
You know, now, there are many allies out there for women’s issues among the male population, but not enough. So really, I think it’s the responsibility of me and, you know, other men in my position to point out that this is wrong and that we need to fix it. Right.
The fact because I mean, really, the fact is, is that we lose out on so much as a as an industry, as a society, when we relegate women to these… Subject women to these situations, because as you say, Katie, like you went WSET instead of Court.
Based on the New York Times article, there were so many so many women who have left the Court to either leave the industry or, you know, take a different path. And I just think about the richness in the number of voices and ideas and creativity that we’ve lost because of that. And it breaks my heart.
So, moving forward, we really need to recognize the fact that we are… We are lesser for these issues.
Emma Criswell:
Yeah, it’s yeah, it’s a lot… Like, Karen, you went through the Court for your certification.
Karen Anne Selby:
I did go through the Court for my certification. However, I feel like my Court of Master’s experience in comparison to a lot of other people’s Court of Master’s experience is different because I went to International Culinary Center. So International Culinary Center put me in a safe space. It put me in a room with the course, started out with 50 of us, and then by the second week it was only 11 of us and half of us were women. The Dean of Wine Studies, at International Culinary Center, Scott Carney, who was on the board for the Court, he was he was an awesome leader, he was an awesome teacher.
And Elizabeth was the assistant for the wine program, and she currently works for Verity, and she’s also WSET as well, and she’s also Court of Master’s, and she’s fantastic. And I just… Nothing out of the ordinary happened through my two-hundred-hour training at International Culinary Center. That four months was very intense, and I never felt like being a woman I was less than. Definitely being the only colored person in a room, the only black woman in the room definitely still resonates with me, but I never felt less than.
You know, and when I took the introductory and the certified through the Court of Master’s, I had the comfort of taking it at my school. So, I had just graduated from that program, got certification from International Culinary Center, and then one week later I sat through intro, and two days later I was certified. So, it was almost out, and, you know, when you’re sitting through intro 60 people in a room, you know, we give ’em.
We were like that was like our study guide because all the expensive exams that we just took through this program, the intro for the Court was really like a study guide for us. And, you know, we dominated the room. We had an AM and a PM course, and so out of the 60 people, 30 of… Maybe twenty-five to thirty of those students in that room were from I.C.C. and the rest of the room was from all over the country.
So as far as testing was concerned, I didn’t feel… I didn’t feel that pressure. I just felt like I had to do a good job. It felt very equal. But I really do pay that to International Culinary Center. I don’t really pay that to the Court of Master’s. But if I did just take the intro and certify through the Court of Master’s, I would not feel as passionate about wine as I do, I will not be as knowledgeable about wine as I am.
Most of my most of my volunteer work, seminar, work, and wine activities have come through the ICC alumni network. Court of Master’s never sent me an email. You know, “here’s this opportunity for you”, you know, I pay a lot of that respect to ICC and that’s why I always shout them out.
Emma Criswell:
Well, I’m glad that you had that different experience and… make everyone’s experience…
Katie Ellsweig:
It’s very interesting that you have to point out that nothing out of the ordinary happened.
Emma Criswell:
Right.
Katie Ellsweig:
Like that’s a note that you need to make, right? That’s an issue.
Karen Anne Selby:
Right. I know. I’ve been traveling… I live in Pennsylvania and I work in New York. I live in Pennsylvania and I work in southern Maryland. So, I travel a lot. So, I’m usually solo. If it weren’t for my stronger personality, I really do feel like I would have I would have stepped out the lion’s den of the industry.
Emma Criswell:
Mm hmm.
Karen Anne Selby:
Certainly. I mean, I’m not fearful, but that’s just my personality, really. And if someone says something inappropriate to me or is acting in a way that just is a little off, you know, I made a decision a while ago that I’m not going to be uncomfortable to make you comfortable, is what I’m not going to do. If we’re both going to be uncomfortable then now – yeah, I’m going to call you out right now.
I’m not going to look the other way, and if someone like, kind of like creeping or whatever at an event, meet me up at a table and you feel like the conversation going too long, or you feel like they’re pressing up on you in a way that’s inappropriate, calling them out on that and letting them know that you’re very much so aware of what’s happening, will kind of pump those brakes like right there. But every person is not confident enough and strong enough with their personality and so…
People who go through other experiences, so like, you know, depending on who you are and where you are on your journey, you may not be comfortable enough to say, “excuse me, may I help you?” You know, or like just or “keep it moving” or “No, thank you. I’m not interested in that” and move forward. Everyone’s not comfortable enough to do that, so I do understand that.
Emma Criswell:
I mean, it goes back to having a standard set across the industry that that type of behavior isn’t appreciated or accepted at these events, and no matter what’s going on, no matter how much wine you’re having, no matter where you are, just human decency is necessary to everyone you interact with.
Katie Ellsweig:
The bar is so low…
Emma Criswell:
The bar so low right now.
Katie Ellsweig:
The bar is so low… just be decent, and you’re already…
Emma Criswell:
Yeah.
Michael Wangbickler:
Well the… Sorry.
Emma Criswell:
Go ahead.
Michael Wangbickler:
I mean, you know, I think that the. You know, obviously, obviously, this dynamic is a systemic issue in the business, but the thing that was so shocking about the New York Times article and the, you know, the people who are mentioned in that is the abuse of power, right? It was it was this power differential that that these people, basically these predators used as a way – as a means of exercising their will on people who are vulnerable.
And, you know, that to me is… It’s unacceptable. It just – I mean, you know, it’s made worse by the fact that so many people have overlooked it, including me. You know, there’s you know, I’m a male, you know, I’m a white male. In today’s society, there are a lot of things that I just don’t see because I don’t want to see them, and I have to I have to make a conscious effort to say, “OK, is this normal behavior or should I do something about this?”
Katie Ellsweig:
I think that it goes back to what you said earlier that we need women in executive positions, we need to… We need more women in positions of power that can take the rest of the women with them.
I think that one of the reasons why I was so unwilling and hesitant to say anything was because selfishly – and selfishly – I felt like it would affect the trajectory of my career and it would affect me getting into where I am now, which I do consider myself to be in a position of power.
And I think that now it’s my responsibility to repent for that, to make up for the years of silence and putting up with all of that by not allowing it to happen to other people and to lift women up, you know, I think that we have to break through and get to the other side and then hold the door while everyone else walks through.
And we have to stop being… you know women – or I think women are guilty of this, too, is thinking that, you know, if I got here, I have to keep somebody else out because there’s only room for me. No, there’s room for f*ing all of us. Can I curse?
Emma Criswell:
Yes.
Katie Ellsweig:
Oh great.
Michael Wangbickler:
Yes, now I have to put the explicit rating on the podcast.
Katie Ellsweig:
There is room for everyone at the finish line in this industry, if you work hard and you know what you’re talking about and you’re decent to other people, and we have to stop thinking that, you know, as women that if we get there, that’s it. No, if you got there, you turn around and you bring somebody else in too. It’s the most important thing, because that’s the only way that we get from 16 percent women in the Court of Master’s Sommes to flipping that around and to be 50 percent women. The other women have to have to do the heavy lifting here.
Emma Criswell:
Right.
Karen Anne Selby:
I do. I would love to add to that.
Emma Criswell:
Yeah.
Karen Anne Selby:
So, it is actually very challenging to get a female mentor. Someone who really wants to teach you the ins and outs and uplift you, especially if you have a stronger personality. It’s very, very challenging.
So, I could see also why some vulnerable females will be leaning more towards finding a male mentor and falling victim into certain things. Because when you look around for a female mentor, sometimes it’s really hard to find one. And it’s really enlightening. I’ve been studying like WSET, just like how to get into it.
And it’s really enlightening to hear how many female Masters of Wine there are, that’s exciting. Thanks for sharing that.
Emma Criswell:
I mean, we work with a lot of cool women.
Katie Ellsweig:
Yeah, there is some women, Lisa Granik, and oh my gosh, just there is so many so many MW women in the states that are just so – to me, just so willing to share their knowledge and their passion. And when I was studying WSET, almost all my teachers were women.
Actually, I think all of my teachers were women. So, all it really felt like a more nurturing environment for knowledge, and it makes me really sad to hear that what you just said, that there aren’t female mentors out there, I mean that’s…
Karen Anne Selby:
I’ve been – I’m going on three years as a wine professional, I’m still yet to have a full-time wine position. And that’s mainly because as well, a lot of advances are passed that are offered to me, I decline, because I don’t feel the Genuity behind them. If I feel like I’m going to have to sell my soul or if I’m going to do something that I’m not interested in doing, I really don’t care for that position, and I no longer care for your mentorship.
So, I almost isolate myself and I, I share wine the best ways I know how. Any opportunity I get, I hop on it. So, my resume is built up over 60 events that I’ve traveled for across the country, you know, and as an independent firm. And that’s not because I don’t want a home as a wine professional, it’s because that door has not opened for me as of yet.
Michael Wangbickler:
Which is incredibly stupid on everybody’s part.
Emma Criswell:
Yeah
Michael Wangbickler:
Because if any of those listening to this, who needs to hire somebody? Please hire Karen.
Katie Ellsweig:
Hello…
Michael Wangbickler:
And Katie.
Emma Criswell:
Thank you for being on the podcast with us. We’ve got to wrap it up. It’s a great conversation and there’s obviously a lot of work to be done.
And we can provide guidance, but we’re not going to do it for you fellas.
Karen Anne Selby:
This is very true.
Katie Ellsweig:
Just don’t do thing. If you don’t want someone to write a New York Times article about your bad behavior, don’t do [inaudible] that’d be easier.
Karen Anne Selby:
Right.
Michael Wangbickler:
Exactly.
Emma Criswell:
Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. Thanks so much. And we’ll see you next time.
Katie Ellsweig:
Thank you, guys.
Karen Anne Selby:
Awesome, thank you.
Katie Ellsweig:
Nice to meet you, Karen.
Karen Anne Selby:
Nice to meet you, too.
