Episode 14: Leadership and Mentorship in the Wine Biz

Welcome back Hit the Bottle listeners. I am your host, Michael Wangbickler. They say, “You should never meet your heroes.” The people that you admire may disappoint you by not living up to your expectations when you encounter them in real life. The internet is full of horror stories about people meeting their celebrity idols and being crushed by the experience. Leadership comes at a price.

I can confidently say that this has never happened to me. In fact, when I’ve had opportunity to meet my heroes (most of which are in the wine biz, by the way), it’s always been a dream come true. That was the case when I had an opportunity to sit down with Michael Mondavi late last year and chat about leadership in the beverage business. It’s an experience I won’t soon forget.

The Mondavi name is synonymous with wine in the Napa Valley. The family has been truly instrumental in the ascendance of California wine over the past 100 years. For his part, Michael has been a leader and mentor to at least three generations of wine professionals. He’s been an idol of mine for at least 20 years. So, you can imagine how geeked I was when he agreed to be on the show. I really tried to not come across as too much of a fan boy. I hope I succeeded.

Leadership is one of those nebulous ideas that can be hard for some to grasp. The expression “born leader” is frequently bandied about, but I’m of the opinion that leaders are made, not born. So, when you get to chat with a true leader and hear their perspective, it’s truly something special. So, this episode is precious to me, and I hope you find it equally valuable.

Let’s get on with the show.

Transcript on Leadership

Michael Wangbickler:

Raised at Charles Creek Winery in St. Helena, his career began in 1966 when he and his father co-founded the Robert Mondavi Winery in Oakville, Napa Valley. In 1999, Michael, along with his wife Isabel, and their two children, Robert Jr., and Dina, purchased the Animo Vineyard on Atlas Peak.

This marked the first chapter of the Michael Mondavi Family Estate, creating a sustainable legacy to be passed down to the next generation. That same year, the family founded Folio Fine Wine Partners, a full-service wine importer and marketing agency.

And today, the company represents more than 20 family owned and managed wine producers from around the world. Recognized as one of the global emissaries of California wine, he has been actively involved for decades in industry affairs and numerous civic activities. Welcome to the show, Michael Mondavi.

Michael Mondavi:

It is a pleasure to be with you today.

Michael Wangbickler:

Oh, my gosh. I’m a little starstruck right now, so.

Michael Mondavi:

Well, don’t be, let’s just open a bottle.

Michael Wangbickler:

That’s funny! So, before we before we get started, we’re talking today about leadership in the wine business.

It’s something that we’ve been exploring on the podcast a little bit throughout, and I’m super thrilled to have you on. So, let’s start off. Like what qualities do you try to embody as a leader?

Michael Mondavi:

I think first is integrity, because if people don’t believe in you or believe you, you can’t lead anything. And that integrity is earned over time through your actions. And I think leadership is both a learned skill and partially innate because there are people who try to be leaders mechanically and they’re not really leaders.

They’re managers and they’re managing people. And when you lead people, they do it because they want to. They follow you because they want to, not because they have to.

Michael Wangbickler:

Mm hmm. So, would you say that’s empathy?

Michael Mondavi:

It could be, yes.

Michael Wangbickler:

Yeah. You know, being able to read people, you know, in a way that actually, you know, that, you know, as you say, that that innate skill, I think, is might be that empathy.

Michael Mondavi:

The best people that worked with me over the years, I believe, were very successful because I think they were smarter than I was. And I was able to encourage them to hire people who they felt were even smarter than they.

And it really made a difference when at first, I didn’t have the confidence when I was young in business, I go, Oh, that person’s too smart, I’m afraid to hire he or she.

Michael Wangbickler:

Yeah.

Michael Mondavi:

The opposite is true. If you hire people more brilliant or knowledgeable than you, you’re the leader.

Michael Wangbickler:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So other than intelligence, what other qualities are you looking for in others?

Michael Mondavi:

I think you have to be able to evaluate the character of people with whom you work, especially people on your team, if they have good character. If they are trustworthy and they can trust you and you can trust them. Then magic can happen.

Michael Wangbickler:

So, OK. Let’s take let’s take that to mentorship. So, what are the steps that we all need to take to mentor that, the next set of leaders in the beverage business?

Michael Mondavi:

I think the first thing is you have to have younger people who want to be mentored, who want to be coached in how to improve whatever the skill or ability is. You know, if I had someone mentor me on how to play better basketball, it would be a total waste of time because it wouldn’t work.

Michael Mondavi:

I could have Stephen Curry try to teach me to be a great basketball player and it’d be a waste of his time and of mine.

Michael Wangbickler:

Yeah, I’ve got like a six-inch vertical jump, so yeah, that wouldn’t work for me either.

Michael Mondavi:

But my point is that it has to be someone who will really help you. I had two wonderful mentors in my career. One of them had never had a job until he was 54 years old. He’d been a coupon baby, if you will, a very wealthy family. But he understood life, he understood personal relationships and integrity.

And I gained great value from his mentorship, on that side, you might say. Another mentor was a fellow by the name of Harry Serlis, who was president of Schenley Industries, the big distilling company during the 50s and 60s. He then opened his own ad agency in New York.

Michael Mondavi:

He became president of the Wine Institute for about 15 years, and he taught me working with people and making sure that you followed up on everything you committed, because if you didn’t, your integrity starts waning.

Michael Mondavi:

And so, these two gentlemen, in totally different ways, were wonderful mentors to me, and I don’t think a person should just have one mentor unless that mentor is some amazing person who can cover the spectrum of skills and abilities.

Michael Wangbickler:

Mm hmm, yeah. One challenge, I think, for a lot of executives, if not leaders, is a certain lack of, um, confidence in having mentors, you know, often at times nowadays we call them coaches.

Michael Wangbickler:

But I mean, would you say that everybody could use a mentor or a coach, even no matter how high up in the organization they are?

Michael Mondavi:

Everyone, no matter how high up and no matter how old or experienced, and particularly as I’ve aged, I have missed the fact that I have not had in the last few years someone that I could look at as a mentor or coach and say, “Hey, John, what do you think about this?” or “what should I do about that?” and have someone else to really help guide my thinking.

Michael Wangbickler:

Well, and, you know, that’s probably because you’ve transitioned from being mentored to being the mentor, you know

Michael Mondavi:

But even mentors need mentors. And I think that during your maturity as either just a human being or as a businessperson, there will be different types of mentoring that will be more valuable to you than others.

And it will not be a constant mentor. It might be its kind of like going to grade school, to high school, to the university, then to the real world. You could almost use a different mentor in each of those venues.

Michael Wangbickler:

And or for different applications.

Michael Mondavi:

Oh, absolutely, yes.

Michael Wangbickler:

Different particular areas you might need a mentor for, you know, in terms of business development or finance, and you might need a mentor in terms of, you know, just life issues. And

Michael Mondavi:

The mentor who was the person who never really had a job until he was in his 50s, I wasn’t about to ask him questions about business, finance and things like that, whereas Harry Serlis would I mean, he’d be right on and he’d say, “Did you think about this?” or “Why don’t you call so-and-so and talk about this?”

Michael Mondavi:

And so, you need to also hold your mentors accountable, make them earn the privilege of being a mentor.

Michael Wangbickler:

Got it. So, OK, so as somebody who’s being mentored, what are some of the opportunities and challenges for this new generation of leaders?

Michael Mondavi:

I think the challenges today are how do you make sure that the digital age does not take away the interpersonal relationships? I’ve always said back in the beginning, and even today, wine is sold through personal relationships. We need all the digital information we can get.

We need all the DTC tools we can get, but it’s personal relationships and experiences that are so important.

Michael Wangbickler:

Yeah, and that’s, you know, comes back to you know, it’s funny that all the buzz right now, around marketing is about personalization.

Michael Wangbickler:

And what that means is basically that people want to feel like they have that personal touch with the company and that they that they feel like they have a connection.

Michael Mondavi:

In today’s world, if you’ll recall, the old Bartles and James cooler, the wine cooler of, what, 30 years ago? And they were a couple of actors, it was all made up? That would last for about 18 seconds in today’s world.

Michael Wangbickler:

Yeah

Michael Mondavi:

Because they want to see who is Bartles and who is James and are they real? And I think that’s the beauty of what we’ve learned today through the digital capabilities of this is real, and this is not.

Michael Wangbickler:

Yeah, it comes back to that authenticity…

Michael Mondavi:

Integrity…

Michael Wangbickler:

Integrity, trust.

Michael Mondavi:

Absolutely.

Michael Wangbickler:

You know, it’s funny that those are terms that are suddenly so important, but they’ve always been important to have.

Michael Mondavi:

You know to me, one of the sad things with today’s world is that the younger people, whether they be in school or younger people in business. Today, with recordings and videos are missing that if you make a mistake, it is indelible, it is there forever.

Michael Mondavi:

And you can’t go, oops, I learned from that and move on because it will never be forgotten. It’ll never be erased.

Michael Wangbickler:

Yeah, my college career would have ruined me for sure if I had grown up in the digital age.

Michael Mondavi:

You and I are together.

Michael Wangbickler:

So, speaking of things that you know we’re not proud of. So, what can failure as a leader teach us about leadership?

Michael Mondavi:

To me, the first thing you learn is how do you handle the failure? How do you recognize it yourself, and then how do you honestly communicate that to your peers or your subordinates or to your business partners? And if you, it’s so almost redundant today, but if you try to cover it up, it is an absolute disaster.

And what I learned about failure is try to recognize it early, admit it early, and if you learn something from it, so that you can improve in the future, it’s not totally a failure. It’s also a learning experience.

Michael Mondavi:

Try to turn failure into education.

Michael Wangbickler:

Well, I think especially I think that in business today, the attitude has shifted also in terms of the kind of leaders that we want, we want our leaders to show vulnerability, we want our leaders to be more authentic and to be more relatable to who we are. And I think that, you know, your point about admitting your failures is one step in that direction.

Michael Mondavi:

I don’t know anyone who has not made mistakes. I don’t know anyone who has not had business failures. It’s how you handle the business failure, how you learn from the business failure, so that you’re stronger and better in the future is the important aspect.

Michael Wangbickler:

What doesn’t kill us makes us stronger.

Michael Mondavi:

Amen. Well, the first winery that we acquired years ago, we thought, oh, well, you know, we know what we’re doing, we’re Robert Mondavi Winery, we’ve got a great team, phenomenal management people, and this little company we’ll just take it over. We didn’t recognize – I didn’t recognize – the value of culture within that smaller company. And instead of encouraging and nurturing the culture of that small company, we just kind of over overpowered it.

Michael Mondavi:

And as a result, that project failed. And what I learned from that is respect the culture. Enhance, build, nurture that culture, albeit different than yours. But it’s healthy and good.

Michael Wangbickler:

Excellent. So. What should executives like yourself recognize today in training the next generation?

Michael Mondavi:

First of all, I know I can’t predict the future.

Michael Wangbickler:

Yeah

Michael Mondavi:

And it’s changing so rapidly today. I think one thing that would help, I think, for the younger executives today, think about and take time to think about balance in your life. The balance of your career, the balance with your personal life, with your friends, and with yourself.

Take time to look in the mirror and say, what is it I really want to do? Because there aren’t enough hours in the day to accomplish everything you want to do in your career and in your personal life.

Michael Mondavi:

But take a moment to think about that and make a little list of four or five things you want to accomplish in your career in the next year. In your personal life in the next year, and do the same for five years out. I have never yet accomplished all five of any one of those.

Michael Mondavi:

And the good news is, at least you have a road map of where you’re trying to go. But for a young person, growing, striving. Make your lists, and try to maintain some balance, because all of a sudden you may be going from 30 years of age to 62 years of age and going, oh God, I haven’t done anything I wanted to accomplish.

Michael Mondavi:

Or it could be, you’re 62 years old and saying, I have this great business and no personal life. Or you could say I’ve got some wonderful balance, and it’s just a beautiful world. But it doesn’t happen by accident, you have to think about it.

Michael Wangbickler:

Yeah, I’m so glad you brought that up, it’s something that is near and dear to me. I had somebody you might know on the show a while back, Rebecca Hawkins, to talk about a balance glass. In fact, if you look right behind you on the on the wall, I have my kind of dream board of my what my income, lifestyle and contribution is going to be for my life, so I think it is very important to have balance in your life.

Michael Wangbickler:

And I frankly speaking of failure, I fail at that all the time.

Michael Mondavi:

You’re not alone.

Michael Wangbickler:

Yeah, so…

Michael Mondavi:

But the balanced life and the balanced glass is extremely important, and I think more of us should really understand that and get onto the website and learn about it.

Michael Wangbickler:

Great. OK, so, let’s… we can’t predict the future, but if we had a crystal ball, what do we think the leaders of tomorrow will look like?

Michael Mondavi:

I think they will be younger than the leaders of today. I think they will be people who are workaholic in their early years, and are wise enough to realize they have to get some balance. And through their balance and personal life will be a smarter and make better decisions in their corporate or business life.

Michael Mondavi:

I think the young people are maturing today in the art of business, if you will, at a far younger age than we did 10 or 20 or 30 years ago. And they’re going to have a far longer, productive life as a businessperson if they so desire it, because we’re living longer, healthier lives.

And instead of oh, yeah, you have to retire at 63 and you’re probably dead at 67, now some people start retiring at 75 or 80. My uncle still went to the office when he was 100 to sign checks, drove my cousins in their 60s crazy. But I think the younger leaders today are they’re going to be given responsibility at younger ages.

They’re not going to have the years or the miles of experience, but through again, the digital age, the ability to learn quickly and understand a lot more information quickly and digest it, I think that they’ll make wonderful bright decisions at an earlier age than in my generation.

Michael Wangbickler:

Yeah, you know, and to that point, I think that we see this with, you know, millennials and GenZ, that they value experience and, frankly, lifestyle over stuff. Right.

Michael Wangbickler:

Like previous generations, like the boomer generation, you know, it was all about the cars that they drove and the house that they had and the toys that they had. And I think that’s less important to people now than it once was. And really, I think that also forms how they approach work as well.

Michael Mondavi:

I agree with you and I think also that in my generation, if you had young people growing up, you’d want them, for example, in the wine business, you’d want them to spend time working in the cellar to and by time working in the cellar, I don’t mean a month, I mean a year or two or three. And then time in the vineyards and time in…

In today’s world, they could spend a week in the cellar, learn 95 percent of what was learned over the two year period previously, a week in the vineyard with the right again, digital support and mentorship, and in a very short period of time, know every aspect in our industry.

For example, from growing the grape, to making the wine, to the administration, the finance, the marketing and the selling, and they could learn that in a very short number of years, where historically it would have taken 20 plus to gain that knowledge.

Michael Mondavi:

And I think that’s what’s exciting for the young people today, because they can learn – not virtually – actually doing it, but at a far accelerated pace and then find which aspect of the industry that really excites them, and that’s the one that they should attack.

Michael Wangbickler:

Yeah, pushing us old farts to get out of the way.

Michael Mondavi:

Push them. Push them.

Michael Wangbickler:

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Mondavi:

My son and daughter work hard at that. And they’re being more and more successful.

Michael Wangbickler:

Yeah. That’s good. That’s good. That, that shows that you’ve done something right. For sure. So OK, so tell me a little bit about your vision when you started Folio Fine Wine Partners.

Michael Mondavi:

Well, when we started Folio Fine Wine Partners 15 years ago, the consolidation of the industry, whether it was hotels, restaurants, supermarkets, wine shops, they were consolidating, distributors were consolidating, wineries were merging together or being acquired.

And I was convinced that, or I knew that my son, daughter, and I wanted to stay in the wine business, but I was also convinced that we weren’t going to be a large company again. We made that mistake once, not going to repeat it.

But also, how do you bring a 30 to 60000 case Napa Winery to market in our distribution network? How do you get the attention of the wholesaler, the distributor salesperson, the retailer, the restaurateur? It’s almost impossible. But I knew that the best wine in the world would be produced by family owned, family run, wine companies. 90 percent of them are medium and small, like what we envision doing in the future.

They’re going to have the same problem. So why don’t we go back to the old guild where a hundred years ago the craftsmen would bring their different crafts to a central marketplace, either once a month or once a week, and they’d sell it through that guild. I said, why don’t we do a modern guild where we have independent, family owned family run wine companies interdependently marketing, selling, going through all the compliance and logistics in our 50 independent states, plus the District of Columbia.

And therefore, when you go and talk with a wholesaler instead of talking about 40 to 60000 cases of wine, you could talk about a million cases of wine from 20 different suppliers. And have them be complementary, not competitive.

It’s actually working out better today than I envisioned it would 15 years ago, because the consolidation has really accelerated. And as we all know, we have one huge wholesaler and two big, big wholesalers and then a few others.

And it’s very difficult, you know, one wholesaler we deal with has 856 beer, wine, and spirits suppliers over 25000 SKUs. How does my little wine from Napa get any attention there? And unless we had 20 family’s wines and from a value standpoint, enough to be in the top 50 of those eight hundred and fifty-six wineries, I wouldn’t get the time of day, and neither would any of those winery owners.

But because of the fact of working together as partners in marketing and selling our wines, we get the attention of the wholesalers.

Michael Wangbickler:

Do you know if anybody else is doing something similar or are you pretty much it?

Michael Mondavi:

Well, there are import companies and agencies and all I don’t know if any other wine company did it because they realized that in order to sell my wine, I have to bring in other fine wines that will not compete but complement my portfolio.

Michael Wangbickler:

Yeah, yeah that’s neat. So, and then taking it back to leadership, why did you title your role at Folio as coach?

Michael Mondavi:

I actually didn’t. We were, when we started, we said, look, we just come out of being a public company and we sold a public company and we had all these official titles and executive vice president of that, and vice president of whatever, and my son, daughter and I said, you know, let’s try not to have so many corporate titles.

I said, well, legally, we need to have a president and a secretary and a treasurer and things like that. I said the three of us are founders of the company. And my daughter said, “Dad, you’re always trying to coach or help people grow, why don’t we call you founder and coach?”

And I said, that’s a hell of a lot better than president!

Michael Wangbickler:

I like it, and for those who coach soccer like myself, you know, it’s always nice to be called ‘coach’.

Michael Mondavi:

You don’t have to be able to play the game as well as the players, but by coaching and teaching them, you can allow them to excel beyond you. And that, to me, is the whole part of leadership – help people grow beyond you.