Welcome back, HDB listeners. I’m Michael Wangbickler. As I mentioned in our last episode, we have about 10 episodes we recorded late last year that we are rolling out over the next two months. The following show is one of those. Angelica Mabray is a rock star in the Napa Sonoma wine scene, currently the CEO of the Donum Estate. She leads the team there and creating world class customer experiences. With many wine producers being forced to pivot as of late, customer experience and loyalty are more important than ever. The oft ignored digital experience is now mission critical to all businesses, especially in the beverage space. Angelica believes that wine producers focus too much on transactional interactions when they should be building positive emotional experiences.
The revenue will naturally follow. Think about this while listening. It takes five times more effort to attract a new customer than to retain a current one. So, this is kind of important. Now on with the show.
Transcript
Michael Wangbickler:
She has in-depth knowledge of and experience with direct to consumer wine sales and marketing, e-commerce strategies, tasting room and visitor center management, as well as luxury retail goods. Today, I’m going to chat with her about customer experience and what wine producers should do to better engage with their customers. Welcome to the show. Angelica de Vere Mabray.
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
Thank you, Michael, it’s a pleasure to be here today.
Michael Wangbickler:
Super happy to have you on. I’m really looking forward to this conversation.
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
Likewise.
Michael Wangbickler:
Before we begin, would you share with the listeners how they might contact you?
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
Yes, you can contact me directly on email at angelicadevere@gmail.com, and that’s D-E-V-E-R-E, or at AMabray A-M-A-B-R-A-Y on twitter, or via our website at www.thedonumestate.com. So, I’m available via most channels and much to my husband’s chagrin, not super active on social channels. So direct email is best.
Michael Wangbickler:
We’ll have to have a conversation with Paul about that, right?
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
The king of digital.
Michael Wangbickler:
OK, so today we’re talking about customer experience. So, what exactly does that mean to you?
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
When I think about customers experience in the context particularly of the wine industry, I really define that as all of the interactions and touch points that customers have with our brands and our products, whether that’s on the hospitality side, or the wine side, at the winery, online, on the shelf, on the phone. Every opportunity that we have to interact with our customers along their journey with us is an opportunity to create better and more engaging experiences.
Michael Wangbickler:
OK, so basically, any touch point, any touch point…
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
Exactly right.
Michael Wangbickler:
…the customer is going to come in contact with your brands, that has the potential of being a customer experience.
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
Exactly right. If it’s the way that we present the lines online and marketing materials, or digital catalogs, or on our website, or it’s the way that we respond to an inquiry regarding a visit, or the way that we host people when they’re here on property, and the things that we emphasize or de-emphasize that really speak to who we are as a brand. Those are all parts of the customer experience, and really need to be carefully considered as you’re creating programming and storytelling and content, because those are the things that people will take away that will either deepen the engagement with the brand, or that may further someone from your brand, because it just doesn’t resonate with them.
And I think that there’s a mindfulness that comes along with creating customer experience that is first and foremost in terms of how we create tactical execution around those ideas.
Michael Wangbickler:
So, what’s the value of good customer experience?
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
Well, our definition of excellent customer service is to consistently exceed the needs and the expectations of the customer, and that requires understanding what those needs and requirements are. I think there are a lot of different ways to gather that information using our own data from our transactional history, and personal note taking. CRM functionality with our customers is our primary source of understanding what those needs are, and how people prefer to be communicated with what they value, what’s important to them. We use surveys. We do a lot of different things – I think that a lot of people do. But paying attention to that, and soliciting that feedback in order to really create an above the line customer experience at all times.
Michael Wangbickler:
So, we’ve discussed on this podcast previously about CRM systems and how important they are to managing that customer experience. So, what you’re saying is that you are recording in your CRM any customer interaction that you have?
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
Yes, I think that, you know, and I think we’re going to get into this a little bit later on in terms of how do we how do you start to do this, but we have a top down philosophy with our employees and with our customers that we are open to feedback. So, we want to capture at every given touch-point any information that we can get. So, let’s just use as an example, if a customer calls and says that they are coming to visit with their daughter and future son in law, and they give us some information, we take really detailed notes about that visit.
And when they arrive, there is something that specifically harkens back to whatever that information was given, whether it’s a glass, or bottles to celebrate this future son in law who’s joining them, or if it’s a birthday, that we have some special acknowledgment printed on the menu or just very, very small and very subtle to show you that we’re listening, we’re paying attention, and we know who you are. It’s about personalizing every component of the experience, wherever possible. And in order to do that, you have to ask a lot of questions, and you have to pay a lot of attention. And I think that it’s a fairly simple technique, but one that is often missed.
So, we pay a lot of attention to what our customers are telling us, either on the phone, online, in emails or in person. And our staff are actually tasked with taking those notes and recording them post visit, so that we have them for the next time, and that we’re constantly building this database of information and detailed customer data, so that we can refer to it to improve upon it on the next time. And also not to repeat it, because we want it to be unique and special every time we believe it. That’s how we create brand loyalty and deeper engagement with our consumers.
Michael Wangbickler:
So that’s you know, that, again, those are data points on which to build that good customer experience. So, what’s the cost of having a bad customer experience?
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
Well, I think that there are so many. Right? We certainly all are all familiar with statistic that it cost five times more to attract a new customer than it does to retain an existing one. And I think we know that customers who have a negative experience or brand will not continue to do business with you. So, if that’s the case, what are you willing to do to ensure that that doesn’t happen? You know, customers will switch brands because poor customer experience, and all the marketing efforts and the money that we spend in driving traffic to our business result in most customers only giving us one shot.
So, if we have that one shot, it is certainly important and urgent for us to pay attention to how we are handling that opportunity to really connect with our customers. And if we don’t, you know, it’s clear there’s clearly a high expense or an actual cost associated with not doing that well.
Michael Wangbickler:
That makes a lot of sense. So other than, you know, having a rock solid CRM system and taking notes about what’s there to build on their experience for future reference, you know, what should producers what else should beverage producers consider when building a compelling customer experience?
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
Yeah, if we’re speaking just purely tactically and not philosophically, which I think we are here for this for this conversation, I think there are a few things that that businesses can do. Wine producers, beverage producers can do one bill, the customer journey map really understands all the places where you have these points of interaction with your customers 2 understand your buyer personas that will help you understand their preferences and challenges, really create a customer focused culture within your company.
There’s this idea of the cost of caring, know, really making sure that you’re creating a culture internally that supports that idea and incentivizes that as well. I think that’s really important to ask for is just so simple to ask for, ask for and act on the feedback that you get from your customers and your employees. I had a meeting with my staff this morning and the first thing that I said to them was, and I said such an obvious that they are the experts.
They are interacting with our customers on a daily basis and in real time. And what do they say? What are they really enjoying? What could we be doing differently? Really encouraging them to bring the ideas to the table for consideration at a senior level, so that we can start to think about ways to implement them and to integrate them into our programming, I think that that’s really important.
Also create compelling content. What’s your story? Do you have a good story to tell? Do you have a story that resonates with people? Have you really thought about what makes your brand different, and why should people care? Ultimately, I think what we’re all trying to do is to deepen the emotional connection we have with our customers and what they have with our brand. So those are a few obvious tactical ways. I think some of the things that we do here, just to give specific examples, and our story is very much in development, I’ve been in this role for about six months now, so, we’re taking a really hard look at this right now.
But we are very committed to sustainability and biodiversity, and the stewardship of the land. We have two hundred acres here, but what people – and that’s all great, and we talk about that a lot in the industry – but people really like to hear about when they come here is the honeybees, and the lavender, and the way that those two things and that we have this beautiful nurturing environment for these bees with our 3500 lavender plants, and the rescue donkeys that live here, and people love that, and they remember that, and they come here because…
Michael Wangbickler:
Did you say, ‘rescue donkeys’?
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
I did, like a donkey like hee-haw. Yes, we have we have a pair of donkeys that were rescued that live here, and that when people come to Donum, and particularly when our members who have a relationship that they know the donkeys and they bring an apple or carrots and they go out and they interact with the animals and they love them and they know them. And it’s a really personal experience. And I think those are the types of things as simple as they are that feed into a broader strategy and a bigger marketing message, whether it’s about stewardship and being ecofriendly and sensitive, but also to creating tangible touch points that consumers that are memorable for them and that really resonate on an emotional level.
So, you know, obviously we talk about responsible farming and all that sort of thing. But really what they remember are the honeybees, the lavender, the beautiful wildflowers in between the rows and all of those quiet cues to sustainability, not the message that we print on a piece of collateral and pass into their box when they shut their lines. So those are the places where I think you really have an opportunity to touch people.
Michael Wangbickler:
So I just wanted to review a couple of things, because I think you actually you must been reading my playbook because I’m always harping on creating compelling content, you know, mapping the customer journey, figuring out what your buyer personas are.
That’s something that we’re constantly harping on with our clients, and frankly, a lot of them just don’t understand those basics. And so, you know what, what are most producers not doing right now that they should be doing? Do you think?
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
In my opinion, I think that the number one thing that comes to mind, for me, is this idea of engaging with customers in a transactional way. Right? And when I say that, I mean, OK, well, we’re going to send out an email to the top 50 percent of our list about this new release that we have, and expect that there is some sort of transaction that’s going to result from that, and hopefully be revenue generating. I really think the brands generally, in the wine world, are failing to create positive emotional experiences that engender and drive customer loyalty.
If that makes sense, I think satisfied customers aren’t the same as a loyal customer. Your loyalty is an emotion, and that doesn’t come from a transaction. And so, it is my belief that everything that we set up to this point around personalizing experience, and deepening the relationship comes from following up and continuing relationships, post visit and post experience and not making it transactional every time. Are you listening to your customers? Are you asking basic questions? How was everything?
Are you creating feedback loops for your customers and your employees so that you can get all of that information? It’s so rich and so valuable, and particularly, I think in this day and age where the wine industry is at its most competitive, there are so many beautiful producers making beautiful wines at similar price points, how are you going to differentiate yourself? How are you going to create a connection to your wine, to you to your place, to your people, to all of the things that really come together to create that?
But how are you going to communicate that to people? It’s not going to be in an email. You have to empower and incentivize your staff, you have to understand who your customer types and practices are. You have to create a one size fits one size role, in my opinion. And I think that those are all areas where the wine industry has not quite embraced. I think we’re still taking a bit of a spray and pray attitude where we just send emails out, we hope that’s what people are hoping to hear, and we’re not digging any deeper. And as such, I think what we see is that there’s we’re not bringing new consumers into the fold.
We rely so heavily on our tasting rooms, and those are experiences to convert people. We need to create more compelling content to gain more consumer mind-share. That’s my opinion. And I think those are the places where and, you know, of course, every business can improve in those ways, and we certainly don’t have all the answers. But we’re focused on it and we’re thinking about it and we’re constantly trying to improve.
Michael Wangbickler:
That brings to mind the analogy that this this guy named Paul Mabray…
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
I know him.
Michael Wangbickler:
Yeah, I thought you might. And actually, back in Empson Wine when he’s talked about, like, how the model of the tasting room and wine sales works, how people fly across the country to purchase a bottle of wine and then have it shipped back home. You know, it’d be like the equivalent of flying to Detroit and picking out a car and then having it delivered to you, right? So, it is a strange model that we’ve built, especially around the domestic wine market.
So, Napa, Sonoma, Santa Barbara, wherever you happen to be in California or in Washington, or Oregon, we have this DTC model where basically we’re expecting that everybody’s going to come to us. And so, I strongly believe that those brands that figure out how to take the experience to the customer are going to really start to stand out more, and frankly, going to lead us into the next phase of wine sales and marketing.
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
I totally agree. And I would suggest that we have the benefit of most of us have the benefit of transactional data and customer history and ways in which that we can mine our own data to really understand where, for example, these clusters of customers are if we want to, instead of assuming that we should recycle eight to 10 hospitality events per year at our sites, because, you know, those same customers that live regionally and locally that will attend, those are going to come and it’s going to somehow make them love us more.
I would suggest that, yes, it’s important to do those types of events. And, yes, it’s important to have meaningful connection with those customers who are local and regional and supporting your brand, that’s super important. But what about those customers who live in Houston, and Austin, and Florida, and Chicago, and different places where we know we have critical mass in those cities? Why are we not (and we are, actually) going to them? Right?
And saying we’re coming to your market, and we want to create a really special event for you. Our winemaker is coming with a vertical of craft Pinot Noir and national Pino Noir, and we’re going to talk to you about what’s happening at the winery today, and please bring four or five of your best friends. We’re super excited to be here, but it’s we’re delivering content, we’re delivering information, it’s educational, and there is no expectation necessarily of a transaction, but just deeper brand engagement. That is a worthwhile opportunity.
And I think that if you change your mindset and you think about it slightly differently and it’s not the Field of Dreams idea of if you build it, they will come, you will see measurable differences in your business. And back to this idea of customer experience, people feel really engaged and much more likely to continue with your club, and to continue to buy more and to come visit and to recommend you to friends and family. I think we all know and we quote him many times from Robert Mellon, and lots of other people in this industry who are very smart, that the recommendation of family and or friends is the biggest influence on purchasing still in the wine world today.
So, reaching people through their own networks seems like a pretty obvious way to get out into the market, and really convert people to brand ambassadors and super fans.
Michael Wangbickler:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that I can almost guarantee you some of my listeners are thinking to themselves, well, yeah, yeah, that that makes a whole lot of sense. But, you know, how am I going to do that? So, I think that there’s also a bit of a near-sightedness in our industry in terms of what we can actually accomplish. You know, we often look within our own organizations to determine whether we have the capacity to do something.
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
Yeah
Michael Wangbickler:
We’re very insular as an industry. Strangely, instead of saying, OK, what resources are out there that exist that we can use to make ourselves more efficient and better at what we do, a lot of that mindset doesn’t really exist in a lot of the industry.
So there are a lot of fantastic tools out there, and or consultants out there, that can really help wineries move beyond their own walls to expand into an area where they can better engage with their customers through that customer experience, whether that customer experience is on site or off site.
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
Absolutely, and I can think of a few really specific examples of other producers who are approaching this and thinking about it similarly, but executing differently. So, for example, they perhaps don’t have the resources or the marketing budgets to support going in market and doing a dinner or send in their winemaker or they don’t have a TV budget for that, totally understand.
So, they’re creating live video where they’re presenting the new release of wines, and organizing on the other end their customers and their customer friends. And they ship the wines ahead and they’re doing these really incredible interactive experiences that, again, do exactly what I described earlier with a slightly different methodology that deepens the engagement and the experience with that brand and that winemaker or that whoever it is, hospitality spokesperson. So, it’s not meant to be taken literally when I say, oh, go out into the market and sell wines to your customers. Just get out into the market.
That’s the message. However you do that, and start talking to people that can help spread the message that you’ve developed, the story that you’ve told, and to really continue to play that forward. Because I think where it gets a little difficult is, we’re all competing for the same customer now, here in Napa and Sonoma. Right? And as I said earlier, it’s so highly competitive and there’s so many producers here that are making incredible wines, how are you going to set yourself apart?
Michael Wangbickler:
Absolutely. So, before we wrap up, can you tell us a little bit more about Donum Estate and the customer experiences that you’ve built there in the brief six months that you’ve been there?
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
Yes, absolutely. So first, the staff. For those who are unfamiliar with the Donum Estate, Donum is 200 acres in Carneros and Sonoma. We produce about 6000 cases and we’re growing. Produce chardonnay, pinot noir, single vineyard, state driven. We have vineyards in Russian River Valley region and also in development in Bodega. Our first vintage was in 2001. And we also have, which is uniquely different, 40 monumental sculptures that are installed throughout the property.
But now let me tell you what Donum really is. So Donum is not simply a vineyard that produces superior wines. Donum is a place that offers a personal human experience to everyone who visits. Donum brings together wine, art and the land, and creates these beautiful, engaging experiences with our visitors.
The way that we do that is through throughout the two hundred acres that we have here, people are allowed to walk – and encouraged to walk – out amongst these incredible contemporary art pieces, and learn about the vineyards, and learn about the wine. And every time they come, it’s slightly different, whether it’s the season and it’s thirty five hundred lavender plants that are in bloom, or the honeybees, or the sound of the three hundred and sixty five chime installations that we have that’s new to the property as of September.
And we’ve created these highly personalized experiences for people to come out with one of our hospitality wine educators and go out into the property experience at their pace, so they can walk, or they can take an ATV. We do a full exploration of the wines and really explain to them the influence and the importance of the different parts of the property, the terroir influence, and we just allow people to enjoy, and it’s such an immersive sensory experience that they go away a little bit changed.
Michael Wangbickler:
As with many of our episodes, it always seems like the time goes very quickly and we could talk about this for a long time, but unfortunately, we are out of time. So thank you very much for being on the show. I really appreciate it.
Angelica de Vere Mabray:
Absolutely. It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
Michael Wangbickler:
I hope you enjoyed today’s episode as much as I did. We hope you found value in the discussion and garnered some good ideas. If you’re interested in contributing to this or other topics, hit me up at Mike@htbpodcast.com, or on Social at mwangbickler or HTBpodcast. I’m Michael Wangbickler. Thanks for listening.
Show Links
Angelica de Vere Mabray email: angelicadevere@gmail.com
Angelica de Vere Mabray on Twitter: https://twitter.com/amabray
The Donum Estate – https://www.thedonumestate.com/
